{"id":1144,"date":"2015-06-09T13:34:04","date_gmt":"2015-06-09T05:34:04","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/nargalzius.com\/blog\/?p=1144"},"modified":"2015-06-09T13:34:04","modified_gmt":"2015-06-09T05:34:04","slug":"how-to-talk-about-your-religious-beliefs","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/nargalzius.com\/blog\/archives\/2015\/06\/09\/how-to-talk-about-your-religious-beliefs","title":{"rendered":"How to Talk About Your Religious Beliefs"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>I found the article below to be a good read:<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/www.relevantmagazine.com\/god\/worldview\/how-talk-about-your-religious-beliefs-without-being-jerk\">How to Talk About Your Religious Beliefs (Without Being a Jerk)<\/a>  <\/p>\n<p>This seems to have been written by an agnostic at &#8216;best&#8217; (depends where you&#8217;re standing) &#8211; but nevertheless, he makes a very good point (about not being right no matter what stance you take), and it&#8217;s one that&#8217;s never lost on me when I talk about these sorts of things.<\/p>\n<p>For those who aren&#8217;t familiar with the posts on my <a href=\"http:\/\/nargalzius.com\/blog\/archives\/category\/perspective\">perspective<\/a> section, you know that the purpose of my posts are to shed light on why I think the way I do. I guess in context of the linked article, it would be &#8220;my story&#8221; &#8211; and the posts are more to explain why my reasoning is the way it is &#8211; so that people who don&#8217;t agree with me, at least understand why I&#8217;ve arrived at my conclusions. And I think when you at least have that (proper context) any debate, argument, turns into a proper and <em>meaningful<\/em> dialogue where I get to learn about others as much as they learn about me.<!--more--><!-- \/\/ --><\/p>\n<p>For the most part, I have no issue if a person approaches an argument through the lens of faith. But they shouldn&#8217;t be surprised if I consider their angle to have lesser weight than a practical, scientific, or secularist argument. That&#8217;s not to say that arguing through faith automatically makes anyone wrong &#8211; it just means that you really have bring more to the table if you want to make a really convincing argument. To over-simplify, saying &#8220;because God said so&#8221;, to me, is a weak argument.<\/p>\n<p>To be fair, the truth is ANY perspective\/argument is rarely <em>entirely<\/em> correct. Which is to say that even if you argued secularly, or scientifically, you simply <em>cannot<\/em> claim full accuracy and unassailability &#8211; because there&#8217;s always something to nitpick, or an experience that seems to be an exception, etc.<\/p>\n<p>However, here&#8217;s the key difference that is simple and true: that given two contrasting perspectives that are <em>equally<\/em> <strong>in<\/strong>complete, the one with a basis that <em>can<\/em> be confirmed will (and should) always have more merit IMHO.<\/p>\n<p>For example, if you&#8217;re arguing the validity of Sharia law based on doctrine &#8211; when you can easily (and statistically) confirm its practical effects on societies, <span class=\"footnote_referrer\"><a role=\"button\" tabindex=\"0\" onclick=\"footnote_moveToReference_1144_1('footnote_plugin_reference_1144_1_1');\" onkeypress=\"footnote_moveToReference_1144_1('footnote_plugin_reference_1144_1_1');\" ><sup id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_1144_1_1\" class=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text\">1 <\/sup><\/a><span id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_1144_1_1\" class=\"footnote_tooltip\">which is mostly oppressive unless you purposefully violate some tenets here and there<\/span><\/span><script type=\"text\/javascript\"> jQuery('#footnote_plugin_tooltip_1144_1_1').tooltip({ tip: '#footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_1144_1_1', tipClass: 'footnote_tooltip', effect: 'fade', predelay: 0, fadeInSpeed: 200, delay: 400, fadeOutSpeed: 200, position: 'top right', relative: true, offset: [10, 10], });<\/script> it should be very obvious which is the more &#8220;reasonable&#8221; stance to take.<\/p>\n<p>If you think that example is too one-sided, then how about the argument of pro-life: If a person used doctrine (ten commandments) vs a woman who chose to have an abortion because she&#8217;s poor and has already got 7 kids and got pregnant despite using contraception&#8230; my consideration\/sympathy will <em>always<\/em> be on the latter &#8211; even if I agree with the former. Because of the simple fact that the latter&#8217;s context\/decision was based on circumstance that <em>CAN<\/em> easily be confirmed &#8211; rather than just following some &#8220;mandate&#8221; with an origin (invisible man who lives in the sky) that ultimatley <em>CANNOT.<\/em><\/p>\n<p>That&#8217;s not to say that I disagree with the former, in fact, I <em>prefer<\/em> pro-life because it truly is the &#8220;ideal&#8221; &#8211; but I would only support if our society has progressed into an affluent one &#8211; where the practical implications of having children are no longer a concern (since everyone can afford it)<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<p>The trouble with arguing based on faith is that while it is arguably the &#8220;nobler&#8221; route to take, it almost always makes for a faulty(ier) argument. Because even the exceptions cannot be grounded on a proper foundation that&#8217;s solely in the realm of religion\/spirituality.<\/p>\n<p>Take homosexuality for example. Modern society pretty much accepts it &#8211; which is a good thing. But make no mistake, the scripture (Leviticus) does seem to imply in no vague language that it is (was?) a sin. So the question is: how do the &#8220;faithful&#8221; reconcile this &#8211; how did making an exception for homosexuality come about? Why are people claiming that they could still be good Christians (or even claim to be <em>better<\/em> Christians by going <em>against<\/em> scripture)?<\/p>\n<p>So normally we&#8217;d start by shifting the issue to a broader topic: the &#8220;purpose&#8221; of Religion as a whole &#8211; that if a faith truly advocated inclusion, acceptance, etc. then it does stand to reason that the words in Leviticus couldn&#8217;t possibly be right. It&#8217;s sensible argument, so let&#8217;s go with that.<\/p>\n<p>So if it&#8217;s all about inclusion, acceptance, love, etc. &#8211; that means practically ANY lifestyle (regardless if the scripture denotes it as &#8220;sinful&#8221;) can be accepted right? Because any good Christian will still accept you as you are. <\/p>\n<p>Sure&#8230; until we have to consider serial killers, pathological liars, corrupt officials, etc. into the mix. Obviously, we haven&#8217;t found the &#8220;right&#8221; argument to make a proper exception &#8211; no problem &#8211; let&#8217;s move on&#8230; and we eventually arrive at the fact that sexual orientation doesn&#8217;t <em>harm<\/em> anyone. <\/p>\n<p>Great &#8211; sounds good, let&#8217;s use that instead. The primary crux here now is if the &#8220;issue&#8221; is capable of inflicting <em>harm.<\/em> And let&#8217;s be generous and include harm of <em>any sort<\/em> (physical, emotional, mental). It certainly works well with <em>most<\/em> of the commandments and deadly sins. Honoring your parents, check. Not killing, check. Not having affairs, sure, etc, etc. looks like we&#8217;re on the right track.<\/p>\n<p>But what about gluttony or sloth?  Why are these two deadly sins as they are? In fact, lets throw lust, envy and pride in there as well &#8211; what&#8217;s so bad about having these traits if you&#8217;re not hurting anyone with it? It&#8217;s not like lust automatically leads to rape, or that envy automatically leads to robbery, or that pride automatically leads to hurting others. Gluttony doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean you&#8217;ve stolen from the poor &#8211; and how much more harmless can you get with sloth, right?<\/p>\n<p>You see how convoluted it can get? And notice that we <em>still<\/em> eventually needed to approach things <em>practically<\/em> &#8211; the only unassailable logic that works for both religious and non-religious people is the golden rule, and the reason it works is <em>not<\/em> because it was rooted in religion &#8211; as the concept (if you can even call it that) far predates religion or philosophy.<\/p>\n<p>The <a href=\"http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Golden_Rule\">ethic of reciprocity<\/a> is a practical truth that anyone, from any period time, will <em>always<\/em> arrive at (with or without religion) for as long as they are dealing with other human beings &#8211; and that, whether you like to admit or not, is really more of a <strong>secular<\/strong> approach to relationships.<\/p>\n<p>So going back to the issue of faith and exceptions (particularly homosexuality), It would be very difficult for a person of faith to convince me that any progressive stance they&#8217;re taking (especially if it&#8217;s a stance that their church currently does NOT condone) was because of their faith &#8211; I would assert that secularism (or secularism&#8217;s influence on their faith) did that. <\/p>\n<p>When a person says they are staunch believers and favor faith over secularism &#8211; and if they really meant it, they <em>cannot<\/em> be supportive of homosexuality on a fundamental level, likewise they <em>cannot<\/em> be pro-choice on a fundamental level. It has nothing to do whether the Bible is right or wrong. I simply mean that to decide on faith alone, you basically decide on church tenets which are ultimately based on scripture &#8211; and the scripture doesn&#8217;t mince words from what I&#8217;ve read. So there&#8217;s really no reason, based on faith alone, to consider homosexuality as &#8220;ok&#8221;. Remember, the scripture doesn&#8217;t explain <em>why<\/em> certain &#8220;sins&#8221; are as they are. It says homosexuality is bad just as killing is bad, just as envy is bad, just as&#8230; you get the picture.<\/p>\n<p>So any &#8220;(re)interpretation&#8221; of it (which is <em>always<\/em> based on social anthropology), is basically reasoning on a secular level &#8211; which is a good thing &#8211; but it doesn&#8217;t change the fact that based on the reasoning I&#8217;ve just presented, that given two similarly incomplete viewpoints (in this case secular vs religion), then the secular approach clearly has a better foundation (reality) in which its arguments are grounded on.<\/p>\n<p>And once you make that fact clear, then you&#8217;ll see how easier it is to deconstruct religious claims <span class=\"footnote_referrer\"><a role=\"button\" tabindex=\"0\" onclick=\"footnote_moveToReference_1144_1('footnote_plugin_reference_1144_1_2');\" onkeypress=\"footnote_moveToReference_1144_1('footnote_plugin_reference_1144_1_2');\" ><sup id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_1144_1_2\" class=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text\">2 <\/sup><\/a><span id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_1144_1_2\" class=\"footnote_tooltip\">Because the vertical will ALWAYS contradict the horizontal<\/span><\/span><script type=\"text\/javascript\"> jQuery('#footnote_plugin_tooltip_1144_1_2').tooltip({ tip: '#footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_1144_1_2', tipClass: 'footnote_tooltip', effect: 'fade', predelay: 0, fadeInSpeed: 200, delay: 400, fadeOutSpeed: 200, position: 'top right', relative: true, offset: [10, 10], });<\/script> vs secular ones <span class=\"footnote_referrer\"><a role=\"button\" tabindex=\"0\" onclick=\"footnote_moveToReference_1144_1('footnote_plugin_reference_1144_1_3');\" onkeypress=\"footnote_moveToReference_1144_1('footnote_plugin_reference_1144_1_3');\" ><sup id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_1144_1_3\" class=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text\">3 <\/sup><\/a><span id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_1144_1_3\" class=\"footnote_tooltip\">No need to invoke the vertical in the first place.<\/span><\/span><script type=\"text\/javascript\"> jQuery('#footnote_plugin_tooltip_1144_1_3').tooltip({ tip: '#footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_1144_1_3', tipClass: 'footnote_tooltip', effect: 'fade', predelay: 0, fadeInSpeed: 200, delay: 400, fadeOutSpeed: 200, position: 'top right', relative: true, offset: [10, 10], });<\/script>. And that, for me, makes me take secular reasoning more seriously over religious &#8211; <em>especailly<\/em> if those issues are affecting public policy.<\/p><div class=\"speaker-mute footnotes_reference_container\"> <div class=\"footnote_container_prepare\"><p><span role=\"button\" tabindex=\"0\" class=\"footnote_reference_container_label pointer\" onclick=\"footnote_expand_collapse_reference_container_1144_1();\">Notes<\/span><span role=\"button\" tabindex=\"0\" class=\"footnote_reference_container_collapse_button\" style=\"display: none;\" onclick=\"footnote_expand_collapse_reference_container_1144_1();\">[<a id=\"footnote_reference_container_collapse_button_1144_1\">+<\/a>]<\/span><\/p><\/div> <div id=\"footnote_references_container_1144_1\" style=\"\"><table class=\"footnotes_table footnote-reference-container\"><caption class=\"accessibility\">Notes<\/caption> <tbody> \r\n\r\n<tr class=\"footnotes_plugin_reference_row\"> <th scope=\"row\" class=\"footnote_plugin_index_combi pointer\"  onclick=\"footnote_moveToAnchor_1144_1('footnote_plugin_tooltip_1144_1_1');\"><a id=\"footnote_plugin_reference_1144_1_1\" class=\"footnote_backlink\"><span class=\"footnote_index_arrow\">&#8673;<\/span>1<\/a><\/th> <td class=\"footnote_plugin_text\">which is mostly oppressive unless you purposefully violate some tenets here and there<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n<tr class=\"footnotes_plugin_reference_row\"> <th scope=\"row\" class=\"footnote_plugin_index_combi pointer\"  onclick=\"footnote_moveToAnchor_1144_1('footnote_plugin_tooltip_1144_1_2');\"><a id=\"footnote_plugin_reference_1144_1_2\" class=\"footnote_backlink\"><span class=\"footnote_index_arrow\">&#8673;<\/span>2<\/a><\/th> <td class=\"footnote_plugin_text\">Because the vertical will ALWAYS contradict the horizontal<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n<tr class=\"footnotes_plugin_reference_row\"> <th scope=\"row\" class=\"footnote_plugin_index_combi pointer\"  onclick=\"footnote_moveToAnchor_1144_1('footnote_plugin_tooltip_1144_1_3');\"><a id=\"footnote_plugin_reference_1144_1_3\" class=\"footnote_backlink\"><span class=\"footnote_index_arrow\">&#8673;<\/span>3<\/a><\/th> <td class=\"footnote_plugin_text\">No need to invoke the vertical in the first place.<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n <\/tbody> <\/table> <\/div><\/div><script type=\"text\/javascript\"> function footnote_expand_reference_container_1144_1() { jQuery('#footnote_references_container_1144_1').show(); 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jQuery('html, body').animate({ scrollTop: l_obj_Target.offset().top - window.innerHeight * 0.2 }, 380); } }<\/script>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>I found the article below to be a good read: How to Talk About Your Religious Beliefs (Without Being a Jerk) This seems to have been written by an agnostic at &#8216;best&#8217; (depends where you&#8217;re standing) &#8211; but nevertheless, he makes a very good point (about not being right no matter what stance you take), &hellip; <p class=\"link-more\"><a href=\"http:\/\/nargalzius.com\/blog\/archives\/2015\/06\/09\/how-to-talk-about-your-religious-beliefs\" class=\"more-link\">Continue reading<span class=\"screen-reader-text\"> &#8220;How to Talk About Your Religious Beliefs&#8221;<\/span><\/a><\/p><\/p>","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[11],"tags":[896],"class_list":["post-1144","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-perspective","tag-perspective"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack-related-posts":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/nargalzius.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1144","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/nargalzius.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/nargalzius.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/nargalzius.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/nargalzius.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1144"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"http:\/\/nargalzius.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1144\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/nargalzius.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1144"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/nargalzius.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1144"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/nargalzius.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1144"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}